Manuel de Sousa
Bem vindo, Manuel de Sousa! editar
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Olá, Manuel de Sousa, bem-vindo(a) ao Wikcionário! | |||
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- Desejo-lhe uma boa estadia no Wikcionário!
Qualquer dúvida, consulte as FAQ ou use a minha discussão. -Diego UFCG 23:12, 11 Novembro 2005 (UTC)
Spelling editar
Hi Manuel,
Thank you for your message. I feel honored and also a bit ashamed because the truth is that at nl. we have not really come around to formulate a proper policy on this very nasty problem. Dutch spelling is a minefield left behind from many awful wars. Around the time our country (NL) claimed its independence form Philip II of Spain (and dare I remind you: Portugal, this was 1581) our language had undergone some pretty big changes. We pretty much lost our case endings and the difference between two of the three genders. Around that time there is a Dutch grammar written by someone without any axe to grind from which that is pretty clear. Because of the political and religious developments however our linguists politicians, teachers and Calvinist ministers all conspired to turn back the clock and the written language was artificially given back its feminine gender and its four cases. They even invented words that had never existed. This became the school standard and remained so till 1947, although there were a number of spelling reforms around 1800 and the 1880s.
The artificial written language, a kind of Katharevousa that nobody spoke as such, was the cause of much social conflict because it was hard to learn for the lower classes. So proposals to reform it became intertwined in the social struggle of the 19th and 20st centuries. Our leadership was very pigheaded in keeping things as they were. With WW II this finally changed and since then we have had many tug-of-wars about spelling. It is now being revised every 10 years or so in weird and wonderful ways.
Sorry for the history lesson but maybe you will understand why it is a minefield that I have hardly tried to tackle: it scares me. We have few conflicts at nl.wikti and I would like to keep it that way. If you want to cause a big brawl amongst Dutch speakers, the word 'spelling' is the perfect Eris apple.
Wiktionary (for wiki: see below) editar
That does not mean I have not thought about it and so let me share my thoughts with you. First of all, we have to realize that under the ISO 639-3 flag nld (or nl if you prefer the earlier code) resorts all Dutch after Middle Dutch (dum), i.e. after 1500 or so. For Portugese I assume you must be in a similar situation. This means that we can not avoid the historical development of the spelling.
On the other hand for most users the current spelling is what they are after. We have clearly chosen to follow the official Green Book spelling as 'home page' for a word. I think it is important to show readers that that is the only legal standard, as imperfect as it may be. In cases where this spelling really does not make sense, we may state so but we do give 'green' spelling as main page.
For spellings that were valid before 2005 or 1995 we do have a number of lemma's where it is briefly stated that this was a legitimate spelling before x and than a link to the current 'main' lemma.
I think ideally each Dutch word should have a little template block that gives the spelling as it evolved from 1500 onwards, but we have neither the knowledge nor the manpower to bring that idea into practice. One thing that might help is that google scan is putting a lot of older books on line that were scanned from libraries. E.g. the Weiland dictionary form the years 1807-13 is on line and part of the Te Winkel of around 1880. They are public domain and I have been quoting from them here and there. Of course: we are few at nl and so the manpower is not really there to process all this info.
Another complication is that before 1800 there was no real standard, just common practice. I have no idea how to deal with that and it would require expertise way above mine. But: never say never in wikiland! Some day it will come.
I have no idea whether this is of any use to you, because I know little about your language muinto dificil, but I think it would probably be useful if we pool our thoughts. Therefore once again my thanks for your remarks
P.S. I only saw later that your questions focus more on wikipedia than on wiktionary. I cannot really help you there because I have turned my back on the Dutch wiki, even though I was one of the oldest users. Rather in disgust I must add.
I do know that spelling has been a big problem, e.g. with geographic era's. The Green Book spelling demands everything to be with lower case: eoceen, plioceen etc. Geologists write Eoceen, Plioceen and did not want to conform to the new (admittedly rather unwise) rules. Gave a lot of trouble. I think the geologists won because in one of the bylaws of the Taalunie they found that 'professional publications' were exempt. I argued that wiki is decidedly non-professional but that was ignored. Interestingly wiktionary has never really had much problems, but the crowd is much much smaller.